Beginners and BPM
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tommy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good thoughts, Timmy-Tim!
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savoysultan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup.. I would really like to see how many leads and follows locally can actually lead and follow and look good swinging out and dancing at 205 bpms and same at 95 bpms
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Californicate
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

savoysultan wrote:
Yup.. I would really like to see how many leads and follows locally can actually lead and follow and look good swinging out and dancing at 205 bpms and same at 95 bpms


Um... Let's have that challange...

I know girls that look good dancing at any speed. But they look good doing anything.
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savoysultan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooooh.. I like the anything part... yeah dude let's so have that challenge 205 isn't that bad.. right?
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savoysultan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah.. no one will do it
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popthestack
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Challenge? Did someone say challenge?!


This will be out of character for me, but I mostly agree with what everyone has said. Mostly.

- I liked the stuff about asking someone to dance before you know what the song is. I've often let the habit of waiting carry over into national events and all I end up doing is standing around. Sure, there are times I think "oh shoot!" but I dance anyway and it's fun. I love it when I ask someone to dance at some event and the song ends up being super fast. I can tell the girl is thinking "oh dang he better not rip my arms off" and I'm thinking "oh dang she thinks I can't dance fast! whoooooo!!!!! here we go!" and then it's super awesome.

- Learn to dance. You don't get hurt if you know how to dance. If you get hurt at some tempos, learn to dance. I don't care who you're dancing with (aside from dancers with nun chucks), you won't get hurt if you know what you're doing.

- High energy music of any tempo = everyone dancing.

- I don't believe people leave because they are intimidated. They leave because no one asks them to dance. Beginners don't take the initiative to ask the so-called advanced dancers to dance because of the perceived social barrier. Everyone appears to know each other and they're all having tons of fun dancing with each other... which is completely true.

- Funny thing is that the regulars are dancing with their friends thinking, "I should dance with that new person, but I'll wait for a slow song." and they never end up dancing with them because the right song never comes on.

- Right song right shmong! I'll say it again: beginners don't care what they dance to. Isaac has it exactly right when he says he's "raising" a bunch of dancers to like the same music that he does. That's the point I tried to make with my post. And yes, sure, of course my idea of "raising" dancers is going to be different than someone else's. I like different music. I'm really not just trying to say "we need to all dance faster!" All I'm saying is that the music played comes in second place to people actually dancing.

- Familiarity with music is null point. Sure, people might like to hear music they know, but what are you trying to do? Cater to what their preconceived ideas of swing music are? Or "raising" a bunch of dancers that like the music that is played at the venue? I believe the latter will create a better scene. It does, however, take more effort. It takes good djs and dedicated regulars who regularly ask the newbies to dance. Catering to what people are already comfortable with only requires a good dj.

What matters is that people dance and have fun.

Most beginners don't care.
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savoysultan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

word.. word
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeek wrote:
On a side note, it appears that many think that advanced dancers enjoy and should dance to fast music. This may be a wrong impression. If not, what happened to the art of slow dancing. I don't mean blues but lindy hop. In my opinion it is just as difficult as fast dancing. For example, have you ever done charleston to a ridiculously slow song? It is hard because it requires better balance and more muscle control than dancing fast. I have found that slow dancing brings out many flaws or weaknesses that are not as easy to see when dancing fast. I know some dancers that look great dancing fast but can't dance lindy hop to slow music. As soon as the music is slow, they go straight to blues. I am not bashing blues but I enjoy slow lindy sometimes and fast others. They are two different worlds emphasizing different aspects of the dance.


I think all dancers should (as the 405 Jam, a Swing team from LA/OC area, puts it) Blues their way to Balboa. It is so important to know all kinds of dancing. Like it or not swing dancing is a culture and history that everyone is a part of. And in my personal opinion if you are in a culture you should strive to know everything about it. So maybe it isn't for everyone to dance fast, but everyone should know the basics behind it. I mean I'm not saying that I think Joe Lanza or Frankie Manning at their age should still be dancing at Hellzapoppin' sppeds, but the fact is they know how, and they are two of the most well-rounded dancers I know! Learning to dance fast, in my opinion, also makes you realize the important aspects of the dance. IE connection (which seems to be a big problem everywhere).

T_Roach wrote:
I was just thinking that we have an interesting situation in our scene. We leads can wait till the intro of a song is over before asking a follow to dance. In most places I've danced elsewhere, there's so many dancers hoping to dance with the good dancers, the leads have to ask as soon as the previous song ends.


thing 1 and thing 2 wrote:
I have noticed this same trend in other scenes, and I believe it comes from not worrying about what the next song might be because they know they can dance to it and have fun!!


I've noticed that here too. I was used to that when I first started dancing here and whenever I would ask someone to dance before the next song had really started they looked at me like I was crazy! I don't know if I really agree about that reasoning though. I think it's more of the fact that we don't know what song is going to be played next and you don't want to be stuck dancing to a song that you don't enjoy.

[quote=“savoysultan”] yeah dude let's so have that challenge 205 isn't that bad.. right?[/quote]

I’m down!

Oh and about the whole DJing to your crowd yeah that’s important. You need to play the songs that will get beginners to advanced dancers out on the floor, but remember you also need to please the individual groups as well. For example, (using stereo-typical ranges of beats for groups here, so don’t attack and say “well beginners don’t care!” this is purely an example.) the beginners like to dance from slow to medium songs and advanced dancers like to dance to songs from medium to fast. (oh and the example is basing purely off lindy not blues, because that’s a whole different spectra.) anyway… you need to play the fast stuff so the advanced dancers will have a good time, but you also need to play the slow stuff so the beginners have a good time. And don’t expect everyone to be out on the floor and if every one isn’t out on the floor don’t say, “oh well not everyone liked it so I’m never playing music that fast or that slow again tonight.” There needs to be a variety of tempo and energy in the songs that DJs play. Now, I’m not saying DJs here do this, but I’m just saying when you make this comment:
tommy wrote:
T_Roach wrote:
Oh and then you have the "regulars" whining about how fast the music is. Argh! Whine, whine! Laughing Learn how to dance fast! Very Happy


Or... learn how to DJ


To me it sounds like you don’t want DJs to play any fast music… and that just sucks for those of us who Love to dance fast.

Anyway… that’s the end of my preaching. Basically everyone should learn everything… and then there wouldn’t be any problems! It would be sweet!
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popthestack
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally want to attack your example of the stereotypical groups and the BPM ranges for those groups by saying "beginners don't care!", but since you said it was just an example I won't do it. haha!

I'm not sure I completely agree that everyone should learn everything. There's always personal choice and preference. I think it could be good for people's dancing skillz to learn everything, but I don't know if they really should. To me, suggesting that something should be done is suggesting it's necessary for happiness.

Oh. Right. It is necessary for happiness. heh Wink

Also? It depends on what you mean by learning it when you say people should learn it. What is it they should learn?

Should I learn to dance to fast music? Or should I learn to balboa? Or more charleston? Or maybe learn balboa to slow music?

Blues? Should I learn what is most commonly seen in a blues room? Or do I learn to dance to slow music? Or do I just make up my own dancing to slow music?

A dancer good at everything would probably be ideal, but not many people will do that. Everyone's preference is going to be different. I would say people "should" learn to dance to all tempos, but not necessarily that they "should" learn all dances.

Or perhaps I'm just trying to justify why I still haven't really tried to learn balboa. I'll admit my guilt. That charleston stuff is just too much fun!
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savoysultan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y'all need to go clubbin'
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

popthestack wrote:
I totally want to attack your example of the stereotypical groups and the BPM ranges for those groups by saying "beginners don't care!", but since you said it was just an example I won't do it. haha!


Thank you for not attacking it. But by saying begginers don't care you're making a general statement and a lot of beginners do care, but at the same time a lot of beginners don't care. So i think that your logic has a little flaw in it. And I didn't want to make a general statement with my example, but I did, but I did state that it wasn't always the case... so There! lol

popthestack wrote:
I'm not sure I completely agree that everyone should learn everything. There's always personal choice and preference. I think it could be good for people's dancing skillz to learn everything, but I don't know if they really should. To me, suggesting that something should be done is suggesting it's necessary for happiness.

Oh. Right. It is necessary for happiness. heh Wink

Also? It depends on what you mean by learning it when you say people should learn it. What is it they should learn?

Should I learn to dance to fast music? Or should I learn to balboa? Or more charleston? Or maybe learn balboa to slow music?

Blues? Should I learn what is most commonly seen in a blues room? Or do I learn to dance to slow music? Or do I just make up my own dancing to slow music?


I'm not saying everyone has to dance every dance, of course people have their freedom of choice. I'm just saying at least try it and know a little bit about it. You don't know unless you try it right?

But a well rounded dancer knows how to dance tempos slow to fast of any dance they dance. That's what I'm trying to convince people to become... well rounded.

I also think learning the other dances swing has to offer also helps with connection and being able to read your partner. That's another reason I'm for learning everything... or maybe I'm just an over-zealous dancer. Which there isn't such a thing so I can't be.

With any dance you should make up your own stuff. Creativity/improve is such a HUGE thing in dancing. I mean without it we wouldn't be dancing today. So along with learning from people who already know what they are doing when it comes to, for example, blues dancing I need to find my own style and my own moves. I'm not saying you can't borrow from other people's styles or their moves, but have your own little twist on it. does that make any sense?

popthestack wrote:
A dancer good at everything would probably be ideal, but not many people will do that. Everyone's preference is going to be different. I would say people "should" learn to dance to all tempos, but not necessarily that they "should" learn all dances.

Or perhaps I'm just trying to justify why I still haven't really tried to learn balboa. I'll admit my guilt. That charleston stuff is just too much fun!


haha I think you are just trying to justify it. Charleston is cool and all, but I love balboa. Especially when you get into it and the momentum and the connection is there and there it is seemless between moves. *heavy sigh* it's great. Maybe I just love it so much because hardly anyone out here knows it really. I think you're ok with not pursuing Bal though. You personally because you've tried it and you got the basic.. you just have to build on it, but at least you've tried it and you've tried and you've decided it's not your cup of tea. That's all I ask. If you don't try it you're starting to become one of those people that don't dance because they "don't like dancing," when they can't rightfully say it because they haven't tried it.

Then you get dancers that say, "Oh I don't like Lindy I only blues dance or I only east coast," but they never really have tried Lindy. I used to be that way with Blues. Now I dance blues, but when I was out in LA the only Blues experience I had was with creepy creepy creepy guys and i didn't like it, but I come out her and now I'm liking it. But if you ask me I'll prefer Lindy anyday. (see personal preference at work)

savoysultan wrote:
Y'all need to go clubbin'


been there done that... didn't buy the t-shirt, because it wasn't that cool.
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K'laamas
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never "commit myself" to a dance until I hear the song--I always wait until the song starts before I ask someone (or agree) to dance, for a number of reasons:

1. If it's a song I really don't like.
2. If it's a song that's just plain too fast/slow for my taste.
3. If I'm tired from the last dance, and the next song is really fast &/or long.
4. If it's a super-fast song, and I'm asking a super-green newbie to dance.
(Super-slow songs may not be necessary when you're a newbie, but I don't think anyone expects a newbie to dance to a 250+ BPM song very well Wink)
5. If the person I'm asking doesn't dance well to that speed of song.
(Fast is obvious, like in #4. But it also applies to slow songs--I know really good dancers who I just don't enjoy dancing with to really slow songs, even if they aren't too slow for my taste.)

All of these except #1 apply to BPM. Everyone has their own preferences, but if BPM is important with experienced dancers, it's definitely important with newbies. I guess the key is to watch the dancers, to make sure you're not constantly playing speeds they don't like; and to mix it up a little, to try to keep everyone relatively happy Smile
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